In response to Amber at http://overflowofheart.blogspot.com/2008/10/no-more-biting-my-tongue.html
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Very nice post, Amber, welcome to the discussion! Not to echo 'austin mommy', but I think we are of the same mind with regards to this issue. The evidence is just not conclusive enough for an intellectually honest Christian to be able to universally condemn all homosexuals.
Seeing your, and others, answers to this has raised another interesting question in my mind. As believers, you are called to spread and defend the Bible's teachings. That includes the potential task of calling sinners out (in a presumably loving way) with the intent of helping them see the light. If that is the case, where do you draw the line between what you are comfortable taking a stand on and what you would rather just 'let god judge'? I mean, I would expect that you would have no problem (other than general embarrassment) holding a sign that says 'God Hates Rapists', but you would certainly be uncomfortable sitting with the Westboro Baptist Church congregation with a 'God Hates Fags' sign. If homosexuality is indeed a sin, aren't you commanded to stand against that sin with the same certainty that you would with murders, child molesters, or rapists? The Bible is pretty clear on the fact that all sins are equal, so wouldn’t allowing homosexuality (a potential sin) to go unquestioned leave you open to being potentially complicit in a sin? My point here is that I’m not sure that a believer is afforded the same kind of nuanced thinking of a nonbeliever. I have nothing to lose by being slow to judge, since I do not feel that my decisions will be scrutinized against some absolute standard. For the person living in anticipation of an ultimate reckoning by an all-knowing god, it would seem to be much more important to know exactly where the boundaries are. If that is the case, I’m not sure how you can ever feel comfortable in your salvation if there are still unknown sin-traps waiting to strike without your knowledge. Do you really want to get to heaven and then find out that all of those Levitical laws about eating meat and not speaking on the Sabbath were, for instance, actually meant to be enforced? Do you want to suffer in hell for all eternity because you incorrectly assumed that certain concepts in the Bible were merely cultural artifacts? Bringing this back to the topic of homosexuality, I would suggest that a Christian is obligated to take a stand on the issue one way or the other, as they are obligated to know all actions that are potentially displeasing to god. Unless you have homosexual tendencies, I suspect that the sense of urgency to take a side on this issue is simply not that great. If you never intend on practicing homosexuality, what difference – besides the salvation of potentially homosexual friends and family – does it make what the actual truth is; you are safe from judgment either way. Take this same example to other topics like gossip, white lies, drinking, overeating, or any other number of more mundane moral grey areas, and the need to take a stand becomes a bit more relevant. We both know people who would call any of those items on the list a condemnable sin, and if you have god’s judgment hanging over your head, doesn’t it become critically important to know if they are correct?
So can Christians be so subtle in their evaluation of sin? I am not asking for you to judge any one individual, as you are commanded to specifically avoid that, but I am asking about the sinfulness of these morally grey areas. Can you really be a comfortable Christian and have any moral ambiguity? If you are, in fact, forced to make these decisions, what criterion do you use? How do you resolve questions in the Bible that are poorly explained, especially when they are issues of salvation?
Also...
As a side note, you read the story of Lot correctly, and it is one of the more despicable stories in the Bible that people simply gloss over. The two men that Lot was protecting were angels, so he thought it better to let his daughters get raped than two messengers from heaven. Why he is commended for protecting two supernaturally powerful beings with the degrading of his helpless daughters is beyond me. There is no cultural ambiguity in that story, except for the fact that women were basically treated like property in most of the Bible. This practice is never questioned in the Bible, just like slavery. You can even make an argument that the Bible, by creating laws to govern the slave trade, is complicit in such a heinous act.
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Brian – this is long… (That’s what she said)…sorry
I think you’ll find everyone has a different answer to these questions, adding to the idea that there are many ways to interpret the Bible and that has to be ok…
In a previous post on Matt’s blog we touched on individual core values which is, I think, where most people would take a stand. But the truth as I see it is this…issues are rarely, if ever, black and white. For example, murder is sometimes ok (both in the Bible and modern day), lying is sometimes ok, etc. (Rape is a tough one – not sure that’s ever ok – so yeah, that’s probably a safe stand to take – unless maybe there were only two people left on the earth and God clearly asked you to reproduce to save mankind, and she had a headache…I don’t know). I digress…
Because there are few black and white issues, I think it better as Christians that we let the Holy Spirit convict individuals of their sin rather than we take on that role. But, I don’t doubt that the Spirit can use us to convict others on occasion – we just have to be very careful how to handle that…
Your thought about sins being equal is a big issue to address – and I’m no theologian…but I will share what I have experienced in life. I think sin may well be equal in God’s eyes because he is so much Holier than we could ever imagine. Maybe like the perfect wall I just painted – it doesn’t matter if my 6 year old puts one sticky fingerprint on it or colors the whole wall – it just doesn’t look like it should – that might be a terrible analogy…sorry.
As far as we humans are concerned, sins are clearly (in my opinion) not equal. Sins that abuse others, rape, for example seem to be much greater than a sin that I commit in heart like lust or pride. When it comes right down to it, you’d be hard pressed to find a Christian who would put killing on the same level as lying.
Being slow to judge is, in fact, a wonderful gift for a Christian to have and we should all try to grow in that area – I’d imagine it’s one of the things that saddens God the most. The boundaries that you talk about are what I think of as legalism – the Pharisees had their boundaries clearly spelled out according to the law and Christ pretty much told them they were screw-ups. Christ is the new law – the way. So we can look at how Christ lived, forgiving everyone, treating everyone equally, etc., and try to live like that. Of course boundaries must be in place at points but these are more personal rather than law. Just as I set boundaries for my child, God sets boundaries for me – but they are different than the boundaries he may set for you. There is not a set of black and whites that everyone must live by…
Feeling comfortable in salvation is not a term I would use. Knowing how much of a screw up I am and how much Christ gave for me is actually very uncomfortable at times – but it’s in this uncomfortable situation that we find ourselves with a simple promise – those who call on Christ will be saved. “Sin-traps” are the world – they are life – we will always be surrounded by sin and the temptation to indulge. That’s why the grace of God is so amazing – we are not good enough, and never will be…we rely on God’s mercy.
I think your thoughts about what Biblical laws to enforce are very good…and if we don’t struggle through these issues, we will be pretty screwed up.
A lot of the Biblical laws are cultural and do not apply to our culture. They are in the Bible, I think, to give us a more complete picture of God. The Bible needs to be interpreted by each culture in each generation to see how God is calling us to live our lives…
“Bringing this back to the topic of homosexuality, I would suggest that a Christian is obligated to take a stand on the issue one way or the other, as they are obligated to know all actions that are potentially displeasing to god.”
I think some of the issues raised here have already been talked about but let me add this. We can never ever know God. The glimpse that we have of Him is nothing compared to who He is. We can never assume we have Him figured out. He has given us the Bible, the Holy Spirit, and a brain, to deal the best we can with life. But let’s face it, we all suck, we all fall short, and we don’t have it figured out. It’s ok…God see’s our heart – not in a scary ‘send you to hell’ kind of way, but in a loving ‘do your best’ sort of way. Christian or not, I believe we all know when our conscience (the Holy Spirit?) convicts us…we don’t need someone to tell us most of the time…
“ if you have god’s judgment hanging over your head, doesn’t it become critically important to know if they are correct?”
I think it’s a journey and a process – I have been a Christian for a lot of years and am not at a place where I know if everything is correct of not. As for judgment, I would say that Christ came to set us free…freedom…not bondage and fear of judgement – it’s a focus issue…
“So can Christians be so subtle in their evaluation of sin?”
Yes.
“How do you resolve questions in the Bible that are poorly explained, especially when they are issues of salvation?”
I think this statement kind of sums up your whole post. I would say that regarding salvation, there are no areas that are poorly explained in the Bible – salvation is simple – Grace through Jesus.
Other poorly explained issues seem to be up for interpretation and the leading of the Holy Spirit within our lives…that’s why there is so much division – we are not mature enough to unite over common themes, we need to be completely correct in every issues making everyone wrong – we are too proud, even arrogant at times.
The Old Testament is whacky sometimes. I think we are so separated from those cultures, it becomes almost as difficult to understand as a different language. Some things are clear, some are not – that’s why it so important to look to Christ’s example for answers. War in the old testament – ok – even God provoked - really? I just don’t see that in Christ and so I’m led to think probably not…man doesn’t always get it right – Christ did.
Look forward to your thoughts…
Thank you "anonymous" for your thoughts. Well spoken.
Brian- I've been thinking about how to post my "yes" answer here for some time, but hadn't taken the time to write it out yet. When I read anonymous's response, I agree completely.
In short: I don't believe the Bible is a big book of yes's and no's. I think it's safe to say that the church has made huge mistakes and completely lost focus when they get stuck on that viewpoint. Regarding all the non black and white issues - I think it's ok if we don't "choose a side". I think it would be arrogant to do so and would put a wall up preventing the Holy Spirit from working in our hearts. As Christians, yes we are called to point out to if we believe they are engaging in activity that is detrimental to their salvation, but VERY IMPORTANT here is we need to have discernment and wisdom when doing so. Not everyone has that gift, in fact most don't.
Anyway, before this is a whole blog, I'm going to stop. I think anonymous hit the nail on the head and perhaps I'll flesh out my thoughts later.
Thank you both for your perspectives.
Forgive my attempt to label, but lately I’ve been noticing a divergence amongst Christians (at least the ones I interact with). There are those who are comfortable with a relativistic view of faith, and those who feel that there are absolute standards to be enforced. Relativists – I would put both of you in that group – are closer to my own agnostic viewpoint in that they are comfortable living with uncertainties. You may both feel that you have found some answers in Jesus, but you are also very quick to point out that there are plenty of other possibilities. Although I may be skeptical with some of your points regarding Christianity, I can appreciate the openness and restraint that you bring to your faith. I think it may be a generational phenomenon, but I generally find that people my age and younger are more accepting than their older counterparts. While I think that tolerant religion is a tremendously positive societal development, I am not sure if it is in the best interest of the Church (at least the current incarnation of it). If the current trends hold true, how will Christians look fifty years from now? Will the next generation be even more progressive than the last? Are the ‘core values’ of Christianity sacred enough to survive this slippery slope? Since the Church has survived for two thousand years, we are either looking at a temporary reversal of doctrine, or a seminal moment in history. I am certainly not qualified to judge one way or the other, but I think it is important questions for all believers to ask. The more that believers rely on the ‘holy spirit’ to guide their actions, the less attached they will be to historic dogma. This may be exactly what god desires, or it could be the result of postmodern relativism infecting faith. If there are fewer rules and more reliance on the interpretation of spirits, you run the risk of allowing personal subjectivity to unduly bias your conclusions. If, on the other hand, you rely too strictly to dogma, then you wind up with all manner of atrocities that the Church is well documented for. It seems that you are both comfortable with a looser interpretation of both scripture and god’s will. My question then becomes, where do you draw the line? At what point would you place rules above your personal feelings (even if those feelings felt like the Holy Spirit)? If you honestly felt compelled to reject Jesus, for instance, would you accept that god is revealing himself to you in a unique way or would you simply assume that your feeling was not accurate? Given the fact that none of us can have a completely perfect – or even reasonable - view of god, how can we be sure about anything? How can you look at a pagan and say that they are wrong? How can anyone be confident that there is any right or wrong at all? Perhaps god simply chooses to reveal himself in different ways to different people.
I am obviously taking this example to the logical relativistic extreme. You both have taken stances somewhere in the middle, but I would be interested how you keep from swaying one way or the other. What anchors you to your current perspective and what justification do you use with other believers who exist to the left and right of you?
I threw up some comments on this on my blog.
Brian,
I am greatly enjoying this conversation and it has already begun to challenge me which I appreciate.
Your observation about a new generation who are more accepting is exciting (to me). However, we are finding that it is not necessarily an age group. There are people through all ages and generations who are embracing a new way to look at the Gospel. Many great authors share in this journey, young and old, my parents (in their sixties), and many middle age people I know. But your right that it does seem to be common amongst the teenage through 30’s…and definitely ties in with post-modern thought.
I think you are right about tolerant religion improving societal development, and in my opinion, it is very much in the best interest of the church. I think we are seeing a change in the way people view church. People are tired of seeing Christians act like everyone else. Something needs to change, and is changing among certain groups of Christians. Tolerance shows love, and love reveals Christ. Intolerance, war, abuse of “non-Christians”, arrogance about our beliefs, these things that the church has become infamous for, does not show love, and do not reveal Christ to a world that desperately need Him.
I hope that 50 years from now we will see a Church that bases its life on the life of Christ. This is a church that we are dreaming about…a church that is passionate about social justice, about compassion, about loving everyone – including our enemies (that’s right, loving our enemies doesn’t really mean kill them)…a church that knows Christ and is passionate about showing his character to the world – joining with God in his mission to redeem the world. If that is a slippery slope that we are on then give me sled cause it’s gonna be a sweet ride…
I think this is very much a pivotal point in the history of Christianity. Christians have just screwed things up (myself included). We have lost the bigger picture and focused on minor issues that break the body of Christ, the church, and damage its witness to others. To many people (most?) outside the church, what are we known as? Hypocrites, liars, thieves, abusers, destroyers of the environment, unaccepting of different viewpoints…
It’s a sad point in the history of the church – but things are beginning to change and hope is once again being found.
“If there are fewer rules and more reliance on the interpretation of spirits, you run the risk of allowing personal subjectivity to unduly bias your conclusions. If, on the other hand, you rely too strictly to dogma, then you wind up with all manner of atrocities that the Church is well documented for.”
This is very well said. It’s a balancing act I guess – like most of life is. About the rules…I would look to the life of Christ. He was a rule breaker. We have to be careful not to become like the Pharisees…men who had all the rules and kept them perfectly.
Christ said that they were in the most danger…why would he say that to men who were keeping the Old Testament laws perfectly? Because Christ brought a new law…we need to look to Him for our rules. Rules like love your neighbor as yourself and love your enemies. I’m not suggesting that we throw out the Old Testament, but it needs to be viewed through a “Christ-like” lens. If something Christ did seems to go against the Old Testament law, then I think it’s a safer bet go with Christ…He is the fullest revelation of God that we have ever or will ever see. Can you imagine how the world would look at the church if we all acted like Christ – wow – it would incredible.
“It seems that you are both comfortable with a looser interpretation of both scripture and god’s will. My question then becomes, where do you draw the line? At what point would you place rules above your personal feelings (even if those feelings felt like the Holy Spirit)? If you honestly felt compelled to reject Jesus, for instance, would you accept that god is revealing himself to you in a unique way or would you simply assume that your feeling was not accurate?”
These are great questions. For me, this comes back to the issue of understanding the core values of Scripture. The incarnation of Christ is a core value to all Christians, so if I felt like the Holy Spirit was compelling me to reject Jesus, I would have to reject those thoughts as they would fight against the core of my beliefs.
“Given the fact that none of us can have a completely perfect – or even reasonable - view of god, how can we be sure about anything? How can you look at a pagan and say that they are wrong? How can anyone be confident that there is any right or wrong at all? Perhaps god simply chooses to reveal himself in different ways to different people.”
Again, great questions – questions that I have also asked. How can we be sure about anything? Honestly, I would say that it is impossible. Humans are so limited to their experience. We would be silly to think the world is flat (as Christians did), only to be proved by science that we are wrong. We would be silly to say that we have God completely figured out, only to change our mind a few years later. We are on a journey, all of us. All I can tell you is from my own experience. My experience tells me that I am right to believe in God and salvation through Jesus Christ. (More testimony to follow if you are remotely interested!) Could I be wrong? Yes. Could we be in the matrix? Yes. Could I be mentally ill and imagine my whole life as it currently is to wake up next year and realize I have spent my whole life thus far in a chair at a mental institute? Yes.
And yes, I do think that God can reveal Himself differently to different people. Who are we to say that He cannot? The right and wrong issue is tricky – which is why I think there is not a set of rules that apply to everyone. I think a lot has to with the culture we find ourselves in. For example, for us, we would say that polygamy is wrong. But in other cultures, it is the norm. And in Old Testament times, it was the norm…in fact the wisest of all had hundreds, if I remember correctly – King Solomon was the man. This is where the Holy Spirit can guide us. I don’t really understand it all…of course. I still have so many questions. But for me, questions are ok…in fact they are good. The moment we think we have God figured out is the moment I think we are in the greatest danger of all.
“I am obviously taking this example to the logical relativistic extreme. You both have taken stances somewhere in the middle, but I would be interested how you keep from swaying one way or the other. What anchors you to your current perspective and what justification do you use with other believers who exist to the left and right of you?”
What anchors me are my core beliefs which most of, if not all of, are common to every other Christian. I have swayed to both the left and the right along the journey as I think most have. I think it’s ok…it’s a journey. Christ is the rock that we are anchored to; the rest will change with experience.
This discussion thread got me thinking about the differences between absolutism and relativism, so I decided to write about it in a new post. Although this new post (The Nature of God) covers a lot of ground, it did not directly respond to some of the really great comments here, so I wanted to add a personal response as well.
“I think this is very much a pivotal point in the history of Christianity. Christians have just screwed things up (myself included). We have lost the bigger picture and focused on minor issues that break the body of Christ, the church, and damage its witness to others. To many people (most?) outside the church, what are we known as? Hypocrites, liars, thieves, abusers, destroyers of the environment, unaccepting of different viewpoints…”
I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on the makeup of this ideal Church. It sounds like you want a more personal and grassroots kind of Christianity, but is that something that can be built out of the modern Church? As a believer, are you going to work to change your church from within, or simply start anew and let it die on the vine?
“For me, this comes back to the issue of understanding the core values of Scripture. The incarnation of Christ is a core value to all Christians, so if I felt like the Holy Spirit was compelling me to reject Jesus, I would have to reject those thoughts as they would fight against the core of my beliefs.”
This is an interesting struggle. In one case you are quick to take the feeling of the Holy Spirit as proof and then in another case, you are quick to dismiss it as contradicting the Bible. You have stated that your final judgment is always based off of the life of Jesus, but your only direct revelation of Jesus is based in the Bible. It would seem, then, that there are certain parts of the Bible that you do take a bit more literally than others. The natural question I have then is with regards to where you draw the line. Which parts of the Bible are important enough to override your spiritual feelings? Is it only the Gospels, perhaps the New Testament, or are there aspects of the Old Testament that ring true for you? Wherever you draw these lines, how can you be sure that you are not allowing your personal biases to corrupt you?
“We are on a journey, all of us. All I can tell you is from my own experience. My experience tells me that I am right to believe in God and salvation through Jesus Christ. (More testimony to follow if you are remotely interested!) Could I be wrong? Yes.”
These are very brave and refreshing words. We could all be wrong, and the less we assume we know, the more open our mind is to the truth. With regards to your personal testimony, I would certainly be interested in reading whatever you are comfortable sharing.
“And yes, I do think that God can reveal Himself differently to different people. Who are we to say that He cannot? The right and wrong issue is tricky – which is why I think there is not a set of rules that apply to everyone. I think a lot has to with the culture we find ourselves in. For example, for us, we would say that polygamy is wrong. But in other cultures, it is the norm. And in Old Testament times, it was the norm…in fact the wisest of all had hundreds, if I remember correctly – King Solomon was the man. This is where the Holy Spirit can guide us.”
This is an interesting perspective that I dive into much deeper in my new post. If there is no absolute moral standard, what do you check your own actions against? You can use the example of Jesus to cover some of the big topics, but that only takes you so far. If you are looking toward culture as a potential moral guide, how can you be sure that your societies’ cultural norms are pleasing to god? The inhabitants of Sodom were burned alive for the sins of their culture, so I am not so sure that god treats this as a free pass. Whatever god uses to judge us, the Bible makes it pretty clear that it exists independent of both ourselves and our communities.
“The moment we think we have God figured out is the moment I think we are in the greatest danger of all.”
This is perfectly stated. I would apply this to both theists and atheists. You may feel that you have compelling reasons for your beliefs, but you should never try to categorize them as conclusive.
“What anchors me are my core beliefs which most of, if not all of, are common to every other Christian. I have swayed to both the left and the right along the journey as I think most have. I think it’s ok…it’s a journey. Christ is the rock that we are anchored to; the rest will change with experience.”
While this is a very good sentiment, I would encourage you to pick beneath the surface a bit. If Jesus is your anchor, it is safe to assume that you have a model of Jesus with which to anchor to. Where did this model come from? How has Jesus been personally revealed to you? I think that what you are really saying is that you are anchored to the concept of Jesus that you have built throughout the course of your spiritual journey. The more accurate your conceptual model, the more closely your anchor will keep you close to the truth. How accurate is your conception of Jesus? Where did this model come from and how have you vetted it for potential inaccuracies? Is your model unique to your own relationship with Jesus, or can we extract some universal truths from it?
Again, I really appreciate the comments, and I hope we can all continue to challenge each other to honestly seek the truth.
Great response Brian...and great post on relativism and absolutism. Let me digest them for a while and the conversation will continue...
Thanks for all the thoughts. It's good to read and chew on these.
I have struggled recently with the emphasis on right and wrong, black and white, heaven and hell. Sometimes and perhaps many times these wrongly supercede the relationship with God. We think "as long as I've said the right prayer, believe the right things, and avoid the bad things then I'm going to heaven." I think what God is wanting from us is an ongoing growing relationship. The thought that recently occurred to me is that perhaps when God talked about the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil He was talking about this danger of focusing on right and wrong... Perhaps God was saying from the very beginning, "It's not so much about whether you are doing evil or good, it's about your relationship with me." By eating of that fruit we got our eyes off God and onto whether we are doing right or wrong. It is as we grow in our relationship with God that God makes clear how we are to live our lives.
So, this is not an answer for all of those moral questions, but just some food for thought.
I replied again.
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